In 2011, I joined an online message board forum called Kindle Boards (later KBoards) where other self-publishers had joined to give each other support, share what works, and otherwise band together as a community. Back then, self-publishing was considered the kiss of death, and many of my former writer “friends” shunned me for starting down that dark path. Having a community where people could assure you that you weren’t crazy was really a big help.
Yesterday, I was permanently banned from KBoards. But from the way it went down, I doubt that I’m going to miss the place, because it is a very different community now from the one that I joined in 2011.
The brewhaha started when a new member posted a thread to announce a book promotion site that she had just started. These types of sites offer advertising opportunities to authors and curated book recommendations to readers. There are dozens of these sites across the internet, and they are an important part of the indie book world.
On the thread, someone noted that the OP’s promo site did not accept erotica or LGBT books, according to the submission guidelines. Immediately, people began to pile up on the OP, demanding an explanation and accusing her of being unfair. The pile-up had all the signs of a social justice mob:
- Unsubstantiated accusations that get taken at face value and added to a laundry list of perceived wrongs.
- The formation of a narrative that ties in with a much wider set of perceived injustices, making the accused guilty by association.
- Calls for “justice” that make a peaceful and mutually amicable reconciliation impossible.
I’ve seen it happen many times, as I’m sure you have too. If the accused tries to make amends, it only makes the social justice warriors howl even louder. The only thing that can satisfy them is the complete ruination of their enemy—and sometimes, even that is not enough.
As a side note, I would like to point out that I have nothing wrong with people who write LGBT books. Should these books be allowed to be published? Absolutely! The book world is a richer place because of them. I have nothing against people writing them, reading them, publishing them, or promoting them. People should be free to write whatever they want, so long as it does not cause criminal harm (such as doxxing or child porn).
But that’s not what this social justice mob was about. They had taken one line from the submission guidelines (which has since been removed) about not accepting LGBT books, and twisted it in every possible way to skewer the OP. For example, people took it to mean that books of any genre with LGBT characters would not be accepted, when original intent was pretty clear that genre LGBT would not be accepted. There is a difference. They then went on to say that LGBT is “not a category” (though according to Amazon, it most certainly is), and to accuse the OP of all sorts of other things.
When I saw this social justice mob forming, I decided to step in and stop it by deflecting some of the attention onto myself. The idea was to tank their attacks, rile them up just enough for the moderators to take notice, and leave it to them to stop the bullying.
Until this point, my opinion of the moderators at KBoards was pretty good. Even though I’d been on the receiving end of the “cattle prod” a couple of times, I’d always felt that they were more or less fair—or at least that they gave fair reasons for everything that they did. On the KBoards forums, the mods are generally praised as one of the main reasons why the place is so friendly and welcoming.
Part one of my plan worked out perfectly. I poked the SJWs just enough for them to show their true colors, and the thread was predictably locked. The OP and some other KBoards members sent me private messages thanking me for standing up to the bullies. When the mods re-opened the thread, however, all of my posts were gone, but the pile-up that had started the mob from forming was still in place. And predictably, the bullying began again in earnest.
I was disappointed in the mod’s decision, and stated as much, but tried to exercise restraint since there wasn’t much else I could do. Then someone openly accused the OP of being “discriminatory” because their site didn’t promote LGBT books. In response, I started a new thread:
Can we please stop calling promo sites “discriminatory”?
On another thread announcing a new promo site, a bunch of writers are piling up on the OP for stating in their guidelines that they do not promote LGBT books. Rather than derail that thread even further, I figured it would be better to start a new thread to say my piece about it.
It really galls me when anyone accuses a promo group of being “discriminatory” because it doesn’t promote their particular kind of book. By turning their rejection into a social justice issue, it flies in the face of the obvious: that readers aren’t morally obligated to like every kind of book equally, and that promo sites have to pick and choose which books they promote according to (among other things) the tastes of their readers.
Look, I have no problems with people writing, reading, publishing, or promoting LGBT books. If you’re an LGBT author who writes LGBT books, rock on and more power to you. But as a reader, I probably wouldn’t subscribe to a newsletter that promoted them—not because I hate gays, but because it’s just not the sort of thing that I read. Does that make me evil and discriminatory? Am I having “wrongfun”? Should I be forced to read a book that I don’t want to read? No? Then why say all that of promo sites that don’t carry those kinds of books?
My BS test for this sort of thing is to replace the allegedly oppressed minority group with Mormon Texas Czech (I defy you to find a smaller minority group!). If a promo site rejected, say, religious historical fiction, would I get all huffy and accuse them of discriminating against my Moravian Mormon heritage because they rejected my novel about a 1920s Czech immigrant who ran away to Utah and started a kolache shop? No—I’d shrug and figure my book probably wouldn’t do all that well at that site anyway, since their readership obviously isn’t into that sort of thing, and look for a promosite that would be willing to carry my book. And if that site doesn’t exist, I would create it!
Behind these knee-jerk accusations of discriminatory behavior is an implicit call for a new regime of gatekeepers to ensure that the “right” books—the ones that promote the accuser’s particular brand of social justice—are entitled to premium placement. But the fact is that no one is entitled to anything in this business, nor should they be. Besides, we tore down the gates years ago.
I knew that the thread would ruffle some feathers, but I did not predict the response—though in retrospect, it wasn’t surprising at all. Instead of trying to engage with my ideas, the SJWs reported the thread to the mods, who promptly locked it. Only two responses got through, both of which came within spitting distance of Godwin’s Law (“What if a promo site refused to accept books with Jews in them? Huh? HUH?”).
A lot of people were upset that the thread got locked. It accumulated more than 400 views before it dropped off the front page, and I got several PMs saying “I totally agree, these people have gone too far,” and “I was in the middle of my response when the mods locked this thread,” etc.
When I got back to my computer, I posted on the first thread, where I basically said “I find it telling that instead of engaging with me, you got the mods to lock my thread. Since when did disagreement become tantamount to hate speech?” In response, I got the following PM from the moderators:
Joe,
even before the blow up in the My Book Cave thread, you had been pushing the boundaries in your posts here and many had to be edited or removed.
In the My Book Cave thread, it was the tone of your posts that was the problem. I advised you via PM that people who appreciated the restrictions posed by My Book Cave were welcome to post their support in a civil manner. You have refused to do that, instead choosing to make more than one inflammatory post or thread. I refer you again to my most recent PM.
Accordingly, you are placed on post moderation. I note that this at least your third significant moderation action. As you indicate in your most recent post, now deleted, perhaps you need to think about whether KBoards is the place for you. Hopefully this period of post approval will give you that opportunity to think about it.
Betsy
KB Moderator
In response, I wrote the following:
The question is not whether Kboards is the place for me, but whether KBoards has become the sort of place where people can be bullied in the name of social justice. In the last couple of days, I have received multiple PMs thanking me for taking a stand against these bullies, which tells me that this problem is much larger than just me. The fact that your response is to put me on post moderation tells me everything that I need to know: that disagreement truly is seen as hate speech in this community. I won’t be the only one who leaves KBoards because of this.
The final message that I received from the moderators was this:
Joe,
Please tell me where I equated disagreement with hate speech? In the My Book Cave thread, to the best of our ability, we have removed and continue to remove posts on both sides that attacked other members or the OP in the thread and left those that stated their reason for not using the service or asked more questions about it.
I refer you again to my prior PM. You, and others, are more than welcome to state your support for My Book Cave in a civil manner. Instead, you have attacked your fellow members for stating their reasons for not wanting to use the service and for asking questions to clarify the restrictions. There were also questions about the erotica restriction and the restrictions on language. These are reasonable questions. It would also be reasonable for a member to state (as you did, in one bit of your locked thread), that you would appreciate a site that had restrictions. Posts that stated a different point of view in a civil manner without attacking your fellow members would have remained and have been protected.
You chose not to do that, but to instead start yet another thread that attacked your fellow members. While we were discussing that thread (which had not been permanently locked at that time–we were still in discussion), you chose to make yet another post continuing the same discussion in the original MBC thread.
Refusal to accept moderation is a bannable offense. You have been previously banned and placed on post moderation and tonight have refused to accept post moderation. Immediately after posting this, I will ban your account. KBoards is clearly not the right forum for you.
I wish you the best in your future endeavors.
Betsy
KB Moderator
There are a number of things that I found disingenuous about this exchange.
First, I never attacked anybody. I never singled anyone out. I never engaged in personal insults, though personal insults (now deleted) were directed at me. And while I was aggressive in the way that I engaged, I also endeavored to be as intellectually honest as possible. I cannot say the same of those I disagreed with.
Second, it’s pretty clear that the mods were not treating me with the same benefit of the doubt as the bullies. SJWs have a way of rewriting history, and that’s exactly what they were doing by claiming to ask “questions to clarify the restrictions.” There were no attempts to clarify the promo site’s submission guidelines: as soon as one person suggested that any book with an LGBT character would be rejected, everyone assumed that it was true.
Third, it seems quite clear that the mods were waiting for an excuse to ban me. They locked down my thread within minutes of posting it, based solely on reports from people who disagreed with it. With the phrase “perhaps you need to think about whether KBoards is the place for you,” they issued a veiled threat which they followed through on within minutes. Their claim that they hoped “this period of post approval” would help me turn around was duplicitous on its face. So was the question “Please tell me where I equated disagreement with hate speech?” because my account was locked and my IP was banned, making it impossible for me to respond.
Looking back on what I could have done differently, I suppose I could have toned down my rhetoric a bit, or refrained from engaging. But at what point does silence become complicity? If I had let the social justice mob run its course, and the OP had been attacked outside of the boards, would I have done the right thing? When it became clear that the mods were going to let the bullying continue, what was I supposed to do?
Honestly, I feel like I came out of that exchange with my integrity intact. If that means I got banned, so be it.
And to be frankly honest, if KBoards is the kind of place where social justice warriors can dominate the discussion and drive out anyone who disagrees with them, then I really don’t feel bad about getting banned. There is a war going on in our culture today, and I would rather pick a side than be complicit through my silence.
I wondered if you were banned after all that and tracked you down to see if it was true. I myself appreciate the stand you took. The backlash to the new promo site from that one thread sure bothers me. (So much so, that’s why I’m here letting you know). Good luck to you.
Hey thanks! I’m glad you were able to track me down. It bothers me too, since it shows that KBoards has been subverted by the Progressive agenda just like so many other parts of our society. There’s definitely a war going on in our culture, and I hate to cede any ground to the subversives. If getting banned helps others on KBoards to see what’s going on and stand up to the SJWs, then it was definitely worth it.
Hi Joe,
Funny I stumbled across this while searching google for something else. I had to leave kboards early last year for different reasons, though I guess you could say it ended in the same problems – people in the safe space being immune to criticism, while using it to attack everyone who isn’t. I ended up leaving because of the amount of threads asking and giving advice on how to screw everybody over, from readers to cover artists in the third world to companies they relied on to do their business.
Anyway, it wasn’t really a ‘social justice’ thing at the time (a term long favoured by fascists, and I see no irony that these people use it now). Thing is, I also left off twitter for most of the past year because of a lengthy illness followed by family drama that kept me away from writing. I went to kboards for self pub advice and to do some networking, so most of the people on my twitter list were from the boards. When I returned not long ago, it seemed my feed was filled up with white man hate. Sexism and racism, now completely accepted. I thought it was appalling, and said so. Twitter did not take kindly. The next day, Richard Dawkins gets de-platformed for retweeting a joke. Then the Twitter safety council you mentioned here, taking on a person as a key figure who is known for calling on large companies and governments of the entire world to silence her critics. And it went on. I’m a mostly liberal leaning guy, but seeing twitter attacking conservative journalists was beyond the pale for me. But all through that I was worried about saying anything, because that account was for promotion, and the indie author world appears filled with people that think they’re in the middle of some sort of social justice revolution. I couldn’t believe it when a huge thread came up on kboards the other day about someone being racist because they used the word ‘ghetto’ in a (fictional) book title. Seriously, not the content or some circumstance surrounding the person involved – merely using the word ‘ghetto’.
So, anyway, to my point. I was wondering how you were doing, considering your outspoken-ness. Has the world turned on you? Do you suffer in sales from it? Is it possible to speak your mind and still grow a following? As of now I’ve shut down my twitter account and used a photo of my brown skinned wife as my public face. I really don’t want to re-open my twitter account – I hope it dies as a platform and it certainly seems to be going that way – but is there another way to grow and interact with an audience without joining or fearing the mob?
Thanks for your comment, Secret Santa. I’m happy to say I’ve been doing quite well since leaving kboards, and that it turned out getting banned from that community was one of the best things last year that happened to me. There’s a lot of groupthink on kboards that you don’t really notice until you’ve gone. Once I was free from that, I started experimenting with some unorthodox marketing techniques, and the initial results gave been gratifying. I’m selling a lot more outside of Amazon than I was this time last year, I’ve been connecting with my readers more, figuring out my audience, and having a lot more fun. Also, I don’t worry about nearly as many things, and am no less worse off for it. Turns out that most of the concerns I spent the most time, thought, and energy on as a member of kboards were frivolous tempest-in-a-teapot type stuff. And as for the progressives taking over with their hypocritically bigoted views, that hasn’t really hurt me at all. If anything, speaking my mind online has brought me more readers, not less.
Bravo, Joe !
The Cashmere Cardigan thugs on KBoards were a pain in the ass !
I was also banned, and the ‘ reasons ‘ given were the same as you were charged.
‘Moderators’ who actively join one side of a debate, should recuse themselves from arbitration over that discussion.
Anything else is cowardly dishonesty.
Hi Joe,
I saw the thread and I think this is much ado for nothing. LGBT culture is being pushed very hard. I’m gay friendly, let’s say I’m not entirely straight but I think the Kbaorders went a bit far, too. Anyway, I’ve learned to ignore and not strife with people. Take the best you could from Kboards, give something back and let happiness, peace and prosperity prevail.
By the way, I’m seeing you on Pattys’ Sci-fi and fantasy group and she was harsh on My book Cave thread too.
I completely agree. I was placed on post moderation by Betsy ( which is basically a ban as NO ONE sees your posts and believe me the moderators don’t moderate my posts so they will never see the light of day )
All of this because of one post.
Fact is the place is a dictatorship run only by those at the top and unless you agree with them. They nuke you.
Its a sad place really.
I couldn’t agree more !
The ‘Woollen Jerseys and Jackboots’ brigade – with the assistance of a certain ‘Mod’ – are a bunch of ‘PC’ (fake Social Justice) cowards who are happy to ‘dish it out’ but as soon as THEY are criticised, they run to the Mods: complaining IN SECRET until their opponents are banned !
And the ‘Sheeple’ who are prepared to accept such thuggery are no better than the perpetrators.
I was also banned for being ‘argumentative’ and refusing to accept ‘moderation’. Conveniently ‘vague’ ? I was told that many people had complained about me, but never by WHOM I had been accused: or precisely of what !
The important thing is to find an Amazon or Kindle site that is not such a closed club of mutual back-scratchers.
Is there one ?
KBoards has not changed much since you left, Joe. It is still a big, giant pit of despair. A soiled stinky giant diaper left out to fester in the sun.
I questioned the moderators why they allowed self promotion of some books, and they replied it isn’t self promotion if it’s found to be beneficial to other writers. This means if you are peddling a book about improving your writing, for example, you get a free pass.
But the contradictions are not limited to just this. If you question the validity of any of the “regulars”…and get dog piled on, you are not allowed to fight back…as you experienced. There are a few other blogs from other writers that outline the same behavior, so I won’t reiterate here except to say that you are not alone. Many other writers I’ve spoken with are in agreement: KBoards is a toxic, vile place run by moderators with God-complexes.
Their moderation is terrible. They allow the click-baiting threads to continue long enough to drive traffic to their site, and then they become history revisionists with editing posts, or deleting posts altogether under the guise that they are keeping the forum “friendly”.
I am not new to the internet. I’ve been on countless forums that have members that rarely behave the way KBoarders normally behave. Even youtube comments are not as toxic. Post a question and it’s judged immediately by the number of reviews your books have, the number of posts made to the forum, and then…MAYBE, it will illicit an answer. But not without a slew of regular do-nothings that have nothing but free time throwing in their opinion instead of a helpful answer. Eventually the OP’s comment gets derailed as the usual gang of idiots align themselves on either side of the question turned into debatable issue. The moderators sit back until they can find a suitable sacrificial scapegoat and then they swoop in with their savior-holier-than-thou-because-I’m-paid-to-moderate “cattle prod” and make the regulars feel at ease.
Occasionally, a legitimate writer such as yourself falls out of favor with them, and they make an example out of you. They keep goons around as social justice enforcers to pounce on anyone unsuspecting and naive enough to try to participate in their circle jerk.
The really is no sad thing about it. If you are an aspiring writer, use google. KBoards offers nothing but click-bait topics meant to perpetuate traffic driven to itself. It is a forum that feeds on itself using writers as grist. I’ve tried a dozen times to engage other writers, and some asshat will pop up from the wood works, offer NOTHING in the way of contribution besides personal attacks…which the moderators let slide. At best, you will experience passive-aggressiveness at its finest. I lost count on the number of times I was called pedantic on there. Stating fact isn’t welcome, they want sensationalized drama instead.
Fuck them. I am writing this in the hope that it will be published on your blog, Joe, as a means of letting other writers who have had their share of unnecessary grief and time lost on KBoards to know they too are not alone. And also as a note to myself as a warning not to ever again venture onto that forum. Curiosity killed this cat.
Oh, btw, why was I banned? Because I asked for a critique on a short story, as a measure of whether I should continue to pursue writing. Instead, all I got was a dog pile of “one short story” not being enough “time in” to pose such a “silly question”. Not one writer bothered to read the actual story. I did get some good advice, but it was buried in the group-think “MmmmYEAHHH!!! Noob!” Calling one of the other members a bitch in a PM got me banned. Again, fuck them.
I’ll miss your post at kboards. Is it really such a loss for you, though? Most all of the good writers fled from there years ago because they didn’t want to be associated with them because of their rep. it’s only a shell of the place it used to be back when you could find useful information about self-publishing there? Why is it only a shell? Because of nonsense like this. The few big names that hang out there on any regular basis only do so to bully those writers they see as not being as important as they are. They act as i they’re entitled to run the boards and the mods let them get away with it, even though some have posted far worse than anything you said. As far as places to be banned from, it wouldn’t exactly be the end of my world if it ever happened to me.
Sorry about all the typos in that comment. I was wrestling the Chahuahua in my lap at the same time I was typing.
I had two one-star reviews in my first book, done by Kboards members. The first one was based entirely in the “look inside” preview. The second one was after I distributed free copies, and it is even worse than the first, since it’s full of spoilers, and worse than that, wrong spoilers, who deviates the story in such a way that makes the author looks like a retard. Also, I put the book on a 18+ rating and the troll still get pissed by usage of adult themes. How I known they are from Kboards? Simple, the presence of “gatekeepers” and “unpublish” in their reviews, words that you will see mostly at Kboards forums (and usually not employed by standard readers), and a emphasis in grammatical errors where there is none. I posted in Kboards before these two reviews popped up and I regret it, since that community is so toxic that they look like to be in a campaign to ruin indie publishing. They got pissed by the cover of my book, by the synopsis, everything, and some hinted, although in a discreet way, at posting negative reviews in the future, just to make me drop out of the business. I stopped posting there (even deleted most of my my posts) and now that’s what happens. I reported both reviews to Amazon, who did nothing against it. Now I changed the genre of my book from fantasy to political fiction, but I doubt they will stop stalking me. Please, if you are a writer and are reading this, don’t post anything ever in Kboards, because that people will try to ruin your career if you are not writing in their approved clichés.
This is so horrible! I’m sorry they put you through that. Some of the cardigans there definitely seem the type to stalk… Don’t they realize they’d improve their careers more by producing actual work? I swear, some of them fancy themselves New York lit critics. Apparently a lot of the authors who are doing well for themselves don’t ever reveal their books or writer names because there’s just so much hate there. I never see the site recommended anymore because of how bad it’s gotten. It’s quite sad.
It is such a relief to see that I’m not the only one turned off by this board. I joined within the past few months and began posting here and there – seeing the same people starting crap every few threads – but never expected it to affect me. I didn’t make it 20 posts before one of the mods called me “unprofessional” for saying that not every reader’s opinion should be taken seriously (i.e. when they buy a genre they hate, don’t read what the book is about, review the wrong book, etc). The mod has posted over 60,000 times, so naturally she looks like an expert. Several people took my comment and tore me apart – a couple of them don’t even have products out there to merit a strong opinion. It was ridiculous.
I researched the mod’s real name. As far as I can tell, she works during the day and spends her nights telling off people on KBoards for kicks. I Googled further to see if other people are having issues with KBoards being a toxic environment and man! It is bad. People hiring spammers to page farm on Kindle Unlimited to get each other’s books banned, fake reviews, 1-starring books that have never even been read… Even people authors like, just because they’re competition! That’s some cold-hearted BS.
Thanks for stopping by, Ashley. Where did you hear about KBoarders hiring spammers to get each others’ books banned? That’s one I haven’t heard before.
There was some conversation around a post Becca Mills made on Active Voice. I looked deeper into it and it seems to be an issue people are attributing to toxicity in the Writer’s Cafe. Apparently it’s easy to hire a professional sabotager on Fiverr.